SPECIAL INTERVIEW - Go to http://mysite.verizon.net/mollerw/cogent_notion/index.html to see the complete article

with Jim Winder creator of
The Hard But Right Way

I regularly drive several hours to see a concert or hear a noted speaker. So my recent trip to the Ocean Grove Tabernacle to catch a musical event was not unusual for me. What was exceptional was Jim Winder's performance of his The Hard But Right Way show. Mr. Winder has crafted a powerful presentation that weaves highlights of the classic Christian allegory, The Pilgrim's Progress, with his own infectious melodies and lyrics that stay with you long after the performance ends. Jim was gracious enough to respond to a series of questions about his presentation, his preparation and the fascinating story of a man named "Christian" and his unusual and harrowing journey to the "Celestial City".

CogentNotion: The Pilgrim's Progress is a classic Christian allegory, written in a poetic style, during the 17th century. What convinced you it would serve as a relevant source for a contemporary musical presentation?

Jim Winder: John Bunyan in my view really met his goals for this story using his medium - the written word. He wanted to communicate the way to faith and the walk of a believer. The track record of this story speaks for that. I saw an opportunity to underscore key points he made with the story by creating songs that emphasized Bunyan's scriptural base with elements from the story. My goal was to simply use a different medium to accomplish the same goals Bunyan was shooting for. Biblical truth is always relevant and necessary to share the Gospel and encourage contemporary believers. I am using the medium of my day to reach people for Jesus just as Bunyan did using his puritan writings.

CogentNotion: Your The Hard But Right Way show and CD contain beautiful songs that include acoustic guitars, percussion instruments and vocals, as well as narration. How would you describe the musical style of your performance?

Jim Winder: I would call it contemporary Christian acoustic songs based on scripture. I want them to stand alone and apart from the story as well. I have been encouraged that the music is always received well in our performances. Most people take the music home and I have received many encouraging comments over the years from folks all over the world. The most encouraging thing is that people see the clear scriptural grounding in the lyrics. When the Lord's words go out they do not return void so I am especially glad to have songs that deliver the Word.

CogentNotion: It is obvious to anyone watching you perform or who listens to your CD's, that you have a great passion for this material and subject matter. What influences helped cultivate the passion your audience witnesses?

Jim Winder: Max McLean and Marquis Laughlin are two performers I met a few years ago. I performed some openers for them in various NJ churches. They have memorized books of the Bible for dramatic delivery. I learned by watching them how to deliver a story, block the stage, move in and out of character etc. At the time I did not have thoughts of doing that type of work but God had a plan and used their friendship and performance to teach me.

CogentNotion: In this "Postmodern" era, experts advise us that storytelling is one of the best ways to communicate with the current generation. Have you found that your presentation is reaching across generations?

Jim Winder: Yes. For the most part I have geared the program and reached out to churches and delivered the program as an all-church event with all ages attending. I am currently creating a new version of the show that is broken into parts that can be delivered over a 3-5 day period with some video and added elements. This format is geared more for youth events that span several days and require the doling out of the show gradually each day. I hope to reach youth more effectively this way.

CogentNotion: In Bunyan's book, the character "Christian" traverses many obstacles and issues in his journey to the Celestial City. As you penned your music and lyrics, did you find yourself investigating the theological or doctrinal aspects of his sojourn?

Jim Winder: Certainly. Without the Biblical mining I could not have written the songs nor could I transition in performance to application commentary which reaches people most effectively. As Bunyan put it in his closing poem, we want the listener to get the "gold" which is wrapped up in "ore". The gold is the Gospel and the ore is the story. I want so much for God's Word to make the impression and have the story, delivery, and songs be an attractive vehicle. I believe that God's Word has transforming power and that is key in the creative realm and performance. As His Word is received He can do whatever is necessary in the hearer's heart.

CogentNotion: Some might look at The Pilgrim's Progress as typical of a particular doctrinal perspective. In your music you seem to address the more universal truths of the Christian faith. Have you found this helps you cross denomination boundaries?

Jim Winder: I have not had any problems denominationally. Bunyan definitely emphasized some key doctrines that I personally believe and some I am not as hard-lined on. The important doctrines are emphasized in my show though. For instance when Christian and Hopeful meet Ignorance. They emphasize that the "way" we follow the path is critical. Ignorance says "a path is a path". Christian notes that this path begins at the shining gate and points out that Ignorance came onto the path by another short-cut way. Theologically Bunyan is saying we cannot walk the path of faith by any other way than through genuine faith in Jesus. We have to come on the path through Him and come to the cross where our burden can be lifted. As Peter said to the rulers of His day - there is no other name on earth by which men can be saved. This is a key truth to convey regardless of venue.

CogentNotion: After your recent performance at the Ocean Grove Tabernacle, you mentioned to me that your presentation would be an excellent adjunct to a study of The Pilgrim's Progress in Sunday school or Small Group study. How do you envision this tie-in?

Jim Winder: I have worked with several pastors to provide this program as a kick off or a cap off to a teaching series. This past spring a pastor in Pennsylvania did a 12 week series and ended with our program. Another church in New Hope had a retreat weekend and had the program on Sunday night with a pot luck supper afterwards. We traveled to Cleveland recently to perform for a joint event of two churches as a cap off to the pastor's several week teaching series. The program has proven to be a great way to partner with pastors to meet their goals with a creative addition that is all ready to go. Rather than come in and perform a show, I want to work with pastors to help them bring a Christian classic to their people and help achieve their objectives as shepherds to their flock.

CogentNotion: The Pilgrim's Progress describes the journey of the character "Christian". In a subsequent publication Bunyan writes about the journey of Christian's wife and child. Have you considered expanding your presentation to include this material?

Jim Winder: Perhaps someday I will do that, Lord willing. There is more to the current story I hope to incorporate though so my work is not done on the first part. Key places like the Interpreter's house, The Palace Beautiful, the Cliff of Error, and The Delectable Mountains hold more encouragement and warning for the listener. I have added some extra dialogue to various sections as I feel emphasis will benefit the hearer. It is really a joy to re-read the story now and then and add new parts to the existing performance.

For more about Jim Winder and his music please visit:
www.thehardbutrightway.com